EDITED TRANSCRIPT OF AN INTERVIEW GIVEN BY THE FOREIGN SECRETARY, JACK STRAW
FOR BBC RADIO 4, FRIDAY 26 JULY 2002

QUESTION:
The governments in London and Madrid have both moved quickly to say they'll refuse to accept the validity of the referendum proposed by Gibraltar's Prime Minister Peter Caruana for the autumn. His aim is to derail the negotiations on shared sovereignty between the two countries. Jack Straw and his Spanish opposite number have been working on a deal which would improve the lot of Gibraltarians to such an extent that they might look more kindly, one day, on a new relationship with Spain. Mr Caruana regards those discussions as the prelude to a sell out. This morning I asked Mr Straw to give his verdict on Mr Caruana's referendum plan.

FOREIGN SECRETARY:
My concern is that the day after the referendum result the people of Gibraltar are going to wake up and they'll still be faced with the same reality as they were and had been the day before. And the reality is that there is a dispute with Spain, Mr Caruana himself has recognised that and he's also said there ought to be a dialogue with Spain to seek to resolve it. That's what we've been trying to do. Of course I understand the emotions that are generated around sovereignty and I take the issue very seriously. But sometimes, and paradoxically, by conceding a little theoretical sovereignty you can end up with far greater control over your lives.

QUESTION:
But that's what you've got to try and persuade the Gibraltarians of.

FOREIGN SECRETARY:
Indeed and one cannot do that at the level of obstruction which is, frankly, the level at which this debate is currently taking place. But when we are able to demonstrate if we are by virtue initially of a provisional understanding or agreement with Spain and then all the details in which I want the government of Gibraltar to be heavily involved. I'd like them to be involved in the provisional agreement but so far they've been unwilling to do so. If we only actually sit down and say to people look in return for losing some theoretical sovereignty what you're going to get is a huge improvement in the quality of your life and the control over your life and a resolution to this long running dispute...

QUESTION:
...I understand what you're saying there. Clearly you think there's a deal that could be reached which would offer such benefits to people in Gibraltar that they would be prepared to concede some theoretical sovereignty. But Mr Caruana says there's no such thing as theoretical sovereignty, it's all or nothing. And I don't see how you're going to overcome that huge burden.

FOREIGN SECRETARY:
Well it's interesting how opinions do change, not necessarily in Gibraltar here but over the years I've been in politics one has been told that X can never happen and then Y does time and again. And sometimes you have to have a certain cathartic process if you like before there is a change. Now I understand the feeling in Gibraltar, I've understood it all the way through and that's why I think it would be a very brave bookmaker who offered you any odds on a yes vote or one that disagreed with the view of the government of Gibraltar. But it won't change the reality and it's the realities that we've been trying to deal with.

QUESTION:
So if the referendum goes ahead whatever it says your negotiations with Spain will continue regardless?

FOREIGN SECRETARY:
No I haven't said that. Our discussions with Spain will continue because there are further meetings of the Brussels process planned. And when you talk to Gibraltarians of course they've got very strong views about sovereignty but they also want the issues of the border dealt with. They want the issues of phone access, just general social, commercial intercourse across the border dealt with. And some of them, I think the wiser councils, recognise that Gibraltar's niche status; half in and half out of the EU based on tax advantages, is something that can't last. Not to do with any position that I've taken but because of objective realities about the world economy, so that's got to change.

QUESTION:
But does the referendum really make no difference? Can you just roll over it and pretend it hasn't happened or will it make a difference and will it disrupt things at all?

FOREIGN SECRETARY:
Well the simple fact is it will be there but it won't make any difference, which is why I think that it is a rather eccentric and rather expensive idea to tell us what we knew already - that it won't make any difference to the realities of the people in Gibraltar and it's those realities which we are trying to deal with. Ones which Mr Caruana has himself recognised because he says in terms there's a dispute with Spain. He's also said we need a dialogue, well we're trying to have a dialogue to resolve the dispute. And what we've always said all the way through is that if and when there were final proposals which in turn had been discussed with the people of Gibraltar they would only be agreed by the British Government, if they had been positively endorsed by a referendum in Gibraltar organised by the United Kingdom Government. But we have always been a very long way from that.